That test that ace-ace started,
got me really thinking.
Thanks Ace (I think)
Maybe I should get a life,
but it's raining and I can't play golf
and all my action is graded,
all my preseason power ratings are done
and my prototype 1st week parlay card is type set,
And I can't find a poker Game right now.
so here goes.
Is that test making people feel guilty ?
Maybe you guys might not want to think this hard, but it's allstar break
what else can you do ?
I found the following article very interesting.
I don't ever feel I gamble to much,
I don't feel Guilty about taking action,
I don't think I should,
I wonder sometimes,
is God a Gambler?
are we taking His or Her action,
OR is he taking ours?
Here's the Article.
Is God a Gambler?
By Nolan Dalla
Which came first, gambling or religion? Think about it for a moment. Were our prehistoric ancestors praying to the gods first, or wagering in some ritualistic fashion on which caveman would kill the largest mastodon for the tribe? Clearly, both of these indigenous practices have roots dating all the way back to the origins of mankind. As proof, archeologists have dug up a few dice fragments that were carved from animal bone. The dice were determined to predate the modern age. Religion’s ancient rituals date back even further — that is, if human sacrifice and sun worship are to be construed as theological in nature. Gambling is even mentioned in the Bible, although the scriptures raise more questions than answers, since much of what was written is open to interpretation. However, at least one holy book, the Koran, is less ambiguous about the subject. It strictly forbids gambling.
Given the anthropological traditions that link these two distinctive expressions of human personality, why do gambling and religion always seem to be (excuse the pun) at odds? Gambling and religion have been mortal enemies for centuries, locked in a perpetual tug-of-war at several key points in history. Gambling has been on the defensive from the moment lots were first cast in the Great Temple 2,000 years ago. Religious believers have viewed gamblers with contempt and mistrust ever since.
The vestiges of religious attitudes toward gambling continue to this day. Wherever a ballot initiative on gambling comes up anywhere in the United States — whether it’s legalizing casinos, permitting slots at racetracks, or instituting state lotteries — churches are usually sycophants of the opposition. Almost without exception, those who would censor gambling are led by ministers and church people. Even the most vitriolic anti-gambling organization in the country, the National Coalition Against Legalized Gambling (NCALG), is shepherded by a minister, the Rev. Tom Grey.
One explanation for the acrimony that has divided gambling and religion for many centuries is that they are so vastly opposite in their ways and customs. However, I contend that gambling and religion are antagonists that have less to do with "contradictions" than "similarities." The fact is, gambling and religion are at odds with each other because they are so very much alike.
Gambling and religion satisfy the most primal urges within, including two essential human needs — hope and optimism. Gambling, which is the act of engaging in speculation, triggers an adrenal rush. The by-product of the rush is optimism. Gambling renews one’s sense of optimism each time a new poker hand is dealt or the dice pass to a new shooter. From kids trading Pokemon cards to slot-pulling grandmothers, people of all ages are stirred by the allure of its spell. Hope and optimism are even more prominent in religious practices. Some Western religions are predicated on an optimistic view of the future, that the human body will not just turn to dust when it’s all over, but that our lives will continue in a spiritual form.
Then, there are the critics. The modern scientific view toward gambling and religion is not complimentary. It’s downright cynical. Science’s view is that gamblers are destined to lose because the laws of mathematics preclude human mastery over the forces of nature. But don’t bother explaining that to anyone shooting craps or playing slot machines. You might as well try preaching nihilism to a group of Carmelite nuns. Some scientists view religious practices with an equal dose of cynicism. Their followers are doomed to a fate that is all the more disappointing in the end, upon the realization that massive amounts of time and energy have been wasted, and pleasures denied. It’s the ultimate display of self-flagellation.
The monuments we have built to gambling and religion are strikingly similar. At different periods in history, both have been responsible for the most grandiose architecture of the day. Gothic cathedrals dating back to the Renaissance and mosques in the Middle East that are a thousand years old were once the cultural manifestations of the time. Today’s only comparable icons in stature are the megacasinos of Las Vegas — a city that represents global mass consumerism in its rawest form. Each time a new casino pops up on the Strip — whether it’s Bellagio, Paris, or the Aladdin — it elicits the same awe in first-time visitors that people during the Middle Ages must have felt when they first laid eyes on St. Sophia. You can see Michaelangelo’s famous frescos at either the Sistine Chapel in Rome or the Venetian in Las Vegas. Most people probably wouldn’t know the difference.
Face it, Las Vegas is to gamblers what Mecca is to Muslims. It’s what St. Peter’s Square represents to Catholics. It’s not just a place, but a state of mind. Its temples are not just figments of the imagination. They are made possible by the vig that’s passed on to each devoted follower. Consider that low-limit poker games are raked precisely at 10 percent. In most Christian denominations, the standard offering is — you guessed it — 10 percent (with no cap). Once the tithe is dropped in the box, a church might use the money to construct a new wing for the Sunday school, just as the casino might expand its property and bring in more tables. In both cases, the infusion of capital means more bricks, more cement, more steel, and more jobs for workers.
Gambling and religion also invoke our deepest devotion. Scores of books have been written on both, yet there are sometimes no definitive answers. For every worshipper spouting scripture at the Wailing Wall, there are poker players who can recite verse upon verse of the poker prophets. We even have our own set of commandments. "Thou shalt not steal — unless on the button." "Thou shalt not kill — unless it’s a kill pot," and so on.
Speaking of prophets, poker has been blessed with gifted messengers. Their writings have been read, discussed, interpreted, debated, and even challenged. Is J-10 suited favored over K-10 suited in a multiway pot? Hold’em players disagree about that issue the way religious scholars debate the final resting place of Noah’s Ark. In 1978, Doyle Brunson enlisted six of his disciples (instead of 12) and wrote a poker book. Each disciple wrote one chapter. Instead of Mark, Luke, and Peter, we ended up with Caro, Sklansky, and Baldwin. Is it just a coincidence that the end result of Brunson’s effort, Super/System, has been called "the Bible" of all poker books? Come to think of it, if Caro, Sklansky, and Baldwin were dressed in robes and sandals, they’d look like apostles.
Gambling and religion have similar codes of conduct. These codes are predicated on communal trust and personal responsibility. When these codes are violated, the guilty are punished — whether they are cut off from lines of credit, blacklisted from casinos, or excommunicated from the flock. Perhaps due in part to fear of the repercussions of sin, most gamblers and religious believers are moral people. In fact, my view is that gamblers (especially poker players) are more "trusting" and "trustworthy" than the general population. The same can probably be said for religious people. We are bound by the same tenets of honesty. For instance, what other subculture — other than poker players and sports bettors — exchange hundreds and perhaps even thousands of dollars without any written contracts? These agreements are usually based on a common handshake that denotes trust and confidence. Perhaps this same level of trust between people exists in churches, mosques, and synagogues. However, I’ve never heard of or seen money loaned as freely as inside a casino. The most you are liable to get out of a church would probably be a hot meal.
One can devote years of study to either games of chance or theology and never find all the answers. Far too much is open to personal interpretation. These controversies create strong bonds amongst the people with common beliefs, as well as friction between the various factions. Serious poker players look down upon slot players the same way that some religions look down upon others. There are even bad feelings that exist between well-known poker theorists, just as it’s inconceivable that there will ever be a covenant between Islam and Judaism. The divide runs too deep.
Gambling and religion act as diversions from the pressures of daily life. This leads to the downsides of both, which are eerily similar. The downside is when gamblers or religious believers become irrational — which leads to excessive behavior. Gambling’s critics are quick to point out the profusion of problem gamblers in society. The unquestionable truth is, gambling has ruined thousands of lives. Then again, so too have our obsessions with being too thin, too fat, looking too old, shopping too much, smoking, drinking, and a host of other obsessions that are an integral part of daily life for millions of people.
However, no nation has ever gone to war because of gambling. Yet, history shows that entire continents have been invaded and millions of people subjugated because of (and motivated by) religious beliefs. Groups of people were even tortured and killed — in the Crusades and during the Inquisition, for instance — because the minority failed to comply with the traditional belief systems of the majority. Sadly, those archaic attitudes are still with us. They are alive in parts of the Middle East, Ireland, Africa, and the Balkans. Although less austere in nature, they even continue in this country. And some religious leaders would like to have gambling severely restricted, if not banned outright (Note: "Banned" means making it a criminal act). Here’s what the Rev. Tom Grey wrote in the NCALG newsletter (December 1999):
" Today, I am appealing to you to be foot soldiers in this war. You can help us take our message to the people by your work locally, by talking to your friends in other states, and by supporting us financially É To attack the enemy, we must be sure of our support. That is why your contribution is so important at this time É Obviously, we need your most generous contribution as soon as you can send it."
From the newsletter, it’s hard to tell if the Rev. Grey is opening a bank or launching a holy war.
Of course, critics always focus on negatives. Opponents of gambling try to define gamblers through their misdeeds — such as the compulsive gambler who loses everything or the dishonest casino employee who gets caught in a cheating scandal. But just as it wouldn’t be fair to characterize the church using a few crooked televangelists or religious fanatics, gambling should not be depicted by its very worst cases.
What’s wrong about all of this bickering is that gambling and religion should be partners, not enemies. In many ways, we need each other — desperately. Many gamblers need (and could learn from) the teachings of religion, which in many ways acts as society’s moral guardian and ethical conscience. No doubt, religion makes innumerable contributions to improving the quality of lives. By the same token, I think a lot of religious people, if they were to sit down at a card table, might agree that there are benefits to poker playing. It’s a good way to meet people, it encourages intellect, and it fosters creativity. If churchgoers can have bingo nights (which, oddly enough, isn’t viewed as sin), why not have a poker tournament instead?
Gambling and religion are not without personal connections. Gamblers and religious followers are linked. We live together. We work together. We attend religious services together. We gamble together. In fact, gamblers and religious people are often one and the same. Some well-known poker players are very religious. Doyle Brunson is a deeply religious man who has even been known to quit in the middle of high-stakes poker games to attend church. One of the players at this past year’s World Series of Poker was a rabbi. Steve Kaufman, who is a literature professor at Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, finished third in the championship event.
This brings us to the final question: Is God a gambler? I suspect that if the great story that’s been told in the Old Testament is the way things happened — that the world was created in six days and Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with all of the conditions for life in abundance — God must now be contemplating a completely different strategy. Might God be looking down on us at this moment, as if arched over a craps table, absorbed by the tumbling dice rolling across the global landscape, crashing against the wall, colliding with the forces of nature, and speculating on the outcome? Or, after seeing what’s been done on earth, might God wish that he had never made the wager in the first place? Nolan Dalla can be reached at: nolandalla@aol.com
So, What's your opinion, or do you feel it's just a waste of time thinking
about it? I'm also hoping to see lots of readers check this topic out even if they don't respond.
Thanks
T
got me really thinking.
Thanks Ace (I think)
Maybe I should get a life,
but it's raining and I can't play golf
and all my action is graded,
all my preseason power ratings are done
and my prototype 1st week parlay card is type set,
And I can't find a poker Game right now.
so here goes.
Is that test making people feel guilty ?
Maybe you guys might not want to think this hard, but it's allstar break
what else can you do ?
I found the following article very interesting.
I don't ever feel I gamble to much,
I don't feel Guilty about taking action,
I don't think I should,
I wonder sometimes,
is God a Gambler?
are we taking His or Her action,
OR is he taking ours?
Here's the Article.
Is God a Gambler?
By Nolan Dalla
Which came first, gambling or religion? Think about it for a moment. Were our prehistoric ancestors praying to the gods first, or wagering in some ritualistic fashion on which caveman would kill the largest mastodon for the tribe? Clearly, both of these indigenous practices have roots dating all the way back to the origins of mankind. As proof, archeologists have dug up a few dice fragments that were carved from animal bone. The dice were determined to predate the modern age. Religion’s ancient rituals date back even further — that is, if human sacrifice and sun worship are to be construed as theological in nature. Gambling is even mentioned in the Bible, although the scriptures raise more questions than answers, since much of what was written is open to interpretation. However, at least one holy book, the Koran, is less ambiguous about the subject. It strictly forbids gambling.
Given the anthropological traditions that link these two distinctive expressions of human personality, why do gambling and religion always seem to be (excuse the pun) at odds? Gambling and religion have been mortal enemies for centuries, locked in a perpetual tug-of-war at several key points in history. Gambling has been on the defensive from the moment lots were first cast in the Great Temple 2,000 years ago. Religious believers have viewed gamblers with contempt and mistrust ever since.
The vestiges of religious attitudes toward gambling continue to this day. Wherever a ballot initiative on gambling comes up anywhere in the United States — whether it’s legalizing casinos, permitting slots at racetracks, or instituting state lotteries — churches are usually sycophants of the opposition. Almost without exception, those who would censor gambling are led by ministers and church people. Even the most vitriolic anti-gambling organization in the country, the National Coalition Against Legalized Gambling (NCALG), is shepherded by a minister, the Rev. Tom Grey.
One explanation for the acrimony that has divided gambling and religion for many centuries is that they are so vastly opposite in their ways and customs. However, I contend that gambling and religion are antagonists that have less to do with "contradictions" than "similarities." The fact is, gambling and religion are at odds with each other because they are so very much alike.
Gambling and religion satisfy the most primal urges within, including two essential human needs — hope and optimism. Gambling, which is the act of engaging in speculation, triggers an adrenal rush. The by-product of the rush is optimism. Gambling renews one’s sense of optimism each time a new poker hand is dealt or the dice pass to a new shooter. From kids trading Pokemon cards to slot-pulling grandmothers, people of all ages are stirred by the allure of its spell. Hope and optimism are even more prominent in religious practices. Some Western religions are predicated on an optimistic view of the future, that the human body will not just turn to dust when it’s all over, but that our lives will continue in a spiritual form.
Then, there are the critics. The modern scientific view toward gambling and religion is not complimentary. It’s downright cynical. Science’s view is that gamblers are destined to lose because the laws of mathematics preclude human mastery over the forces of nature. But don’t bother explaining that to anyone shooting craps or playing slot machines. You might as well try preaching nihilism to a group of Carmelite nuns. Some scientists view religious practices with an equal dose of cynicism. Their followers are doomed to a fate that is all the more disappointing in the end, upon the realization that massive amounts of time and energy have been wasted, and pleasures denied. It’s the ultimate display of self-flagellation.
The monuments we have built to gambling and religion are strikingly similar. At different periods in history, both have been responsible for the most grandiose architecture of the day. Gothic cathedrals dating back to the Renaissance and mosques in the Middle East that are a thousand years old were once the cultural manifestations of the time. Today’s only comparable icons in stature are the megacasinos of Las Vegas — a city that represents global mass consumerism in its rawest form. Each time a new casino pops up on the Strip — whether it’s Bellagio, Paris, or the Aladdin — it elicits the same awe in first-time visitors that people during the Middle Ages must have felt when they first laid eyes on St. Sophia. You can see Michaelangelo’s famous frescos at either the Sistine Chapel in Rome or the Venetian in Las Vegas. Most people probably wouldn’t know the difference.
Face it, Las Vegas is to gamblers what Mecca is to Muslims. It’s what St. Peter’s Square represents to Catholics. It’s not just a place, but a state of mind. Its temples are not just figments of the imagination. They are made possible by the vig that’s passed on to each devoted follower. Consider that low-limit poker games are raked precisely at 10 percent. In most Christian denominations, the standard offering is — you guessed it — 10 percent (with no cap). Once the tithe is dropped in the box, a church might use the money to construct a new wing for the Sunday school, just as the casino might expand its property and bring in more tables. In both cases, the infusion of capital means more bricks, more cement, more steel, and more jobs for workers.
Gambling and religion also invoke our deepest devotion. Scores of books have been written on both, yet there are sometimes no definitive answers. For every worshipper spouting scripture at the Wailing Wall, there are poker players who can recite verse upon verse of the poker prophets. We even have our own set of commandments. "Thou shalt not steal — unless on the button." "Thou shalt not kill — unless it’s a kill pot," and so on.
Speaking of prophets, poker has been blessed with gifted messengers. Their writings have been read, discussed, interpreted, debated, and even challenged. Is J-10 suited favored over K-10 suited in a multiway pot? Hold’em players disagree about that issue the way religious scholars debate the final resting place of Noah’s Ark. In 1978, Doyle Brunson enlisted six of his disciples (instead of 12) and wrote a poker book. Each disciple wrote one chapter. Instead of Mark, Luke, and Peter, we ended up with Caro, Sklansky, and Baldwin. Is it just a coincidence that the end result of Brunson’s effort, Super/System, has been called "the Bible" of all poker books? Come to think of it, if Caro, Sklansky, and Baldwin were dressed in robes and sandals, they’d look like apostles.
Gambling and religion have similar codes of conduct. These codes are predicated on communal trust and personal responsibility. When these codes are violated, the guilty are punished — whether they are cut off from lines of credit, blacklisted from casinos, or excommunicated from the flock. Perhaps due in part to fear of the repercussions of sin, most gamblers and religious believers are moral people. In fact, my view is that gamblers (especially poker players) are more "trusting" and "trustworthy" than the general population. The same can probably be said for religious people. We are bound by the same tenets of honesty. For instance, what other subculture — other than poker players and sports bettors — exchange hundreds and perhaps even thousands of dollars without any written contracts? These agreements are usually based on a common handshake that denotes trust and confidence. Perhaps this same level of trust between people exists in churches, mosques, and synagogues. However, I’ve never heard of or seen money loaned as freely as inside a casino. The most you are liable to get out of a church would probably be a hot meal.
One can devote years of study to either games of chance or theology and never find all the answers. Far too much is open to personal interpretation. These controversies create strong bonds amongst the people with common beliefs, as well as friction between the various factions. Serious poker players look down upon slot players the same way that some religions look down upon others. There are even bad feelings that exist between well-known poker theorists, just as it’s inconceivable that there will ever be a covenant between Islam and Judaism. The divide runs too deep.
Gambling and religion act as diversions from the pressures of daily life. This leads to the downsides of both, which are eerily similar. The downside is when gamblers or religious believers become irrational — which leads to excessive behavior. Gambling’s critics are quick to point out the profusion of problem gamblers in society. The unquestionable truth is, gambling has ruined thousands of lives. Then again, so too have our obsessions with being too thin, too fat, looking too old, shopping too much, smoking, drinking, and a host of other obsessions that are an integral part of daily life for millions of people.
However, no nation has ever gone to war because of gambling. Yet, history shows that entire continents have been invaded and millions of people subjugated because of (and motivated by) religious beliefs. Groups of people were even tortured and killed — in the Crusades and during the Inquisition, for instance — because the minority failed to comply with the traditional belief systems of the majority. Sadly, those archaic attitudes are still with us. They are alive in parts of the Middle East, Ireland, Africa, and the Balkans. Although less austere in nature, they even continue in this country. And some religious leaders would like to have gambling severely restricted, if not banned outright (Note: "Banned" means making it a criminal act). Here’s what the Rev. Tom Grey wrote in the NCALG newsletter (December 1999):
" Today, I am appealing to you to be foot soldiers in this war. You can help us take our message to the people by your work locally, by talking to your friends in other states, and by supporting us financially É To attack the enemy, we must be sure of our support. That is why your contribution is so important at this time É Obviously, we need your most generous contribution as soon as you can send it."
From the newsletter, it’s hard to tell if the Rev. Grey is opening a bank or launching a holy war.
Of course, critics always focus on negatives. Opponents of gambling try to define gamblers through their misdeeds — such as the compulsive gambler who loses everything or the dishonest casino employee who gets caught in a cheating scandal. But just as it wouldn’t be fair to characterize the church using a few crooked televangelists or religious fanatics, gambling should not be depicted by its very worst cases.
What’s wrong about all of this bickering is that gambling and religion should be partners, not enemies. In many ways, we need each other — desperately. Many gamblers need (and could learn from) the teachings of religion, which in many ways acts as society’s moral guardian and ethical conscience. No doubt, religion makes innumerable contributions to improving the quality of lives. By the same token, I think a lot of religious people, if they were to sit down at a card table, might agree that there are benefits to poker playing. It’s a good way to meet people, it encourages intellect, and it fosters creativity. If churchgoers can have bingo nights (which, oddly enough, isn’t viewed as sin), why not have a poker tournament instead?
Gambling and religion are not without personal connections. Gamblers and religious followers are linked. We live together. We work together. We attend religious services together. We gamble together. In fact, gamblers and religious people are often one and the same. Some well-known poker players are very religious. Doyle Brunson is a deeply religious man who has even been known to quit in the middle of high-stakes poker games to attend church. One of the players at this past year’s World Series of Poker was a rabbi. Steve Kaufman, who is a literature professor at Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, finished third in the championship event.
This brings us to the final question: Is God a gambler? I suspect that if the great story that’s been told in the Old Testament is the way things happened — that the world was created in six days and Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden with all of the conditions for life in abundance — God must now be contemplating a completely different strategy. Might God be looking down on us at this moment, as if arched over a craps table, absorbed by the tumbling dice rolling across the global landscape, crashing against the wall, colliding with the forces of nature, and speculating on the outcome? Or, after seeing what’s been done on earth, might God wish that he had never made the wager in the first place? Nolan Dalla can be reached at: nolandalla@aol.com
So, What's your opinion, or do you feel it's just a waste of time thinking
about it? I'm also hoping to see lots of readers check this topic out even if they don't respond.
Thanks
T
